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Do you think there is a fundamental difference between shooting game or catching fish out of season, or without a valid license, and knowingly exceeding your bag limit, or size limit in the case of fish? Or do all fish and game law violations fall un

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  • #46
    Originally posted by bowhunter75richard View Post
    I guess it is easy to rationalize and think that one form of doing something is
    wrong, yet try to condone something else that we might interpept as not being
    as bad ! Technically, anything that is done contrary to a rule or law which is
    set to determine size, limit, season, legal shooting hours or that is imposed
    for the protection of fish or game is considered by most to be poaching. There
    may be some areas that could be considered "gray areas" maybe, but if we
    go by the book, I think those "gray areas" are very slim. I feel that in many
    cases the one that I see most often is people continuing to fish after the limit
    has been reached, technically they are breaking the law if confronted by a CO !
    This entire question falls under the code of ethics and in many cases has to
    be determined by the individual him or herself. If I have stepped on any toes
    here, the question was asked and I have given my opinion.
    That should have read, we can not all know the laws of other states. I wish we had a edit comment button !!!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by jcarlin View Post
      I think there's a gray area, but it's the ethical vs. legal battle.

      I do think intentionally taking out of season, or exceeding your limits, not having a license, or being outside sizes is just plain old poaching.

      Gray areas are things like we have a no-cull rule and a size restriction. I rarely ever keep fishing if I've caught a limit of anything. (And rarely take more than a few fish of anything but panfish) It has happened where I've had a stringer of trout quickly and kept fishing catch and release. Then you either catch one that gets clearly injured beyond help. There's a no cull rule. And it's undersized. I can't say that if I have a nice healthy sized trout who's still keeping a loop in the chain stringer happily swimming next to me I wouldn't 1-cull that fish not to go over limit and 2-keep the undersized fish that has no chance of survival. It's not legal.. but it's more ethical.

      The other rule here that gets you is that it is legal to say kill a squirrel out of season that is causing property damage. This of course happens frequently particularly in attics and outbuildings. You are supposed to, under the code, call the commission to come investigate at that point and decide if it was a righteous kill, or if you should receive a game violation. The same commission that couldn't be bothered to come check on a rabid raccoon. What lunatic invites the possibility of that kind of trouble? Is that poaching?
      Jcarlin, I think poaching only (or maybe should) involve hunting situations or wanton killing and not just the
      protection of home or property. Or is that also rationalizing ?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by bowhunter75richard View Post
        I guess it is easy to rationalize and think that one form of doing something is
        wrong, yet try to condone something else that we might interpept as not being
        as bad ! Technically, anything that is done contrary to a rule or law which is
        set to determine size, limit, season, legal shooting hours or that is imposed
        for the protection of fish or game is considered by most to be poaching. There
        may be some areas that could be considered "gray areas" maybe, but if we
        go by the book, I think those "gray areas" are very slim. I feel that in many
        cases the one that I see most often is people continuing to fish after the limit
        has been reached, technically they are breaking the law if confronted by a CO !
        This entire question falls under the code of ethics and in many cases has to
        be determined by the individual him or herself. If I have stepped on any toes
        here, the question was asked and I have given my opinion.
        It is legal to continue to fish here after the limit is caught, just not possess beyond your limit. I no longer do it because I'm past that stage in my outdoor pursuits. No one is upsetting me by criticizing that. I learned the downsides the hard way. I think the undersize but mortally wounded fish is the tough one vs. The wanton waste problem. As I said, I'd rather keep it than waste it. It might be a fine if a CO catches me, but you face up to that.
        I don't duck hunt, but I imagine duck hunters, with the number of species specific limits and quick decisions make a mistake occassionally. Throwing that mistake kill duck in the bushes would be the equivalent of tossing thst small doomed fish back to me.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by bowhunter75richard View Post
          I guess it is easy to rationalize and think that one form of doing something is
          wrong, yet try to condone something else that we might interpept as not being
          as bad ! Technically, anything that is done contrary to a rule or law which is
          set to determine size, limit, season, legal shooting hours or that is imposed
          for the protection of fish or game is considered by most to be poaching. There
          may be some areas that could be considered "gray areas" maybe, but if we
          go by the book, I think those "gray areas" are very slim. I feel that in many
          cases the one that I see most often is people continuing to fish after the limit
          has been reached, technically they are breaking the law if confronted by a CO !
          This entire question falls under the code of ethics and in many cases has to
          be determined by the individual him or herself. If I have stepped on any toes
          here, the question was asked and I have given my opinion.
          It is legal to continue to fish here after the limit is caught, just not possess beyond your limit. I no longer do it because I'm past that stage in my outdoor pursuits. No one is upsetting me by criticizing that. I learned the downsides the hard way. I think the undersize but mortally wounded fish is the tough one vs. The wanton waste problem. As I said, I'd rather keep it than waste it. It might be a fine if a CO catches me, but you face up to that.
          I don't duck hunt, but I imagine duck hunters, with the number of species specific limits and quick decisions make a mistake occassionally. Throwing that mistake kill duck in the bushes would be the equivalent of tossing thst small doomed fish back to me.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Okwaho View Post
            I'd say there are degrees, just like regular crimes. A guy spotlighting deer and shooting them from his truck is more of a bumwad than someone who keeps a fish an inch or two short. Still, I think anyone who knowingly violates any regulation deserves the harshest possible penalty for that particular misdeed.
            I'll admit, i can't run 2 effectively.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by jcarlin View Post
              I think there's a gray area, but it's the ethical vs. legal battle.

              I do think intentionally taking out of season, or exceeding your limits, not having a license, or being outside sizes is just plain old poaching.

              Gray areas are things like we have a no-cull rule and a size restriction. I rarely ever keep fishing if I've caught a limit of anything. (And rarely take more than a few fish of anything but panfish) It has happened where I've had a stringer of trout quickly and kept fishing catch and release. Then you either catch one that gets clearly injured beyond help. There's a no cull rule. And it's undersized. I can't say that if I have a nice healthy sized trout who's still keeping a loop in the chain stringer happily swimming next to me I wouldn't 1-cull that fish not to go over limit and 2-keep the undersized fish that has no chance of survival. It's not legal.. but it's more ethical.

              The other rule here that gets you is that it is legal to say kill a squirrel out of season that is causing property damage. This of course happens frequently particularly in attics and outbuildings. You are supposed to, under the code, call the commission to come investigate at that point and decide if it was a righteous kill, or if you should receive a game violation. The same commission that couldn't be bothered to come check on a rabid raccoon. What lunatic invites the possibility of that kind of trouble? Is that poaching?
              I agree. But not reporting myself is still a code violation. The couple of people i know who have got warnings if not fines. Still cheaper than an electrical fire.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by charlie elk View Post
                Because so many game laws today are more about social behavior than protecting the resources, I think there is a big difference between poaching and violating. The term poaching should be reserved for those who take animals out of season and or off land where they do not have permission. Whereas a violation is when rules are broken, and the penalty is only a fine similar to a parking or speeding ticket. A couple of examples; incorrectly casing a gun or bow, inadvertently using lead in a steel only area, shooting too close to a road (who measures it exactly?) shooting slightly before or after legal shooting hours, etc. To me, these are ways to "cheat" at the sport but do not cross the line to poaching.
                There is in my humble opinion a third category; we once had wanton waste laws on the books; this is when someone kills game within all other legal limits then allows the edible meat to go to waste. There are those who clean it fast leaving behind edible meat, put game in the freezer then throw it away later before the next season opens. Or those who refuse to enter their self-imposed deer sanctuary to retrieve a hit deer. To me, a wanton waster is much worse than any poacher who makes use of an animal.
                @JM, Just the title was irritating, but I no longer read anything Mr. Hanson writes. His kind of demonstrated ignorance is not worth the reading time. He should write about subjects that he has more familiarity with; let's see, such as, bathroom appliance product reviews.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by charlie elk View Post
                  Because so many game laws today are more about social behavior than protecting the resources, I think there is a big difference between poaching and violating. The term poaching should be reserved for those who take animals out of season and or off land where they do not have permission. Whereas a violation is when rules are broken, and the penalty is only a fine similar to a parking or speeding ticket. A couple of examples; incorrectly casing a gun or bow, inadvertently using lead in a steel only area, shooting too close to a road (who measures it exactly?) shooting slightly before or after legal shooting hours, etc. To me, these are ways to "cheat" at the sport but do not cross the line to poaching.
                  There is in my humble opinion a third category; we once had wanton waste laws on the books; this is when someone kills game within all other legal limits then allows the edible meat to go to waste. There are those who clean it fast leaving behind edible meat, put game in the freezer then throw it away later before the next season opens. Or those who refuse to enter their self-imposed deer sanctuary to retrieve a hit deer. To me, a wanton waster is much worse than any poacher who makes use of an animal.
                  Back to the subject of this thread. Because Mr. Hanson, by his admission, committed wanton waste in violation of Michigan regulations I filed a formal complaint with DNR-LawEnforcement@michigan.gov
                  Michigan has a poaching hotline. However, I don't think Hanson's infraction is a poaching case.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by jcarlin View Post
                    Can we exclude the safety violations from the definition of poaching. Our game code is full of things like orange requirement (which I'm generally a fan of) to things like never having a loaded firearm inside or leaning on a vehicle. It's a game code violation... but it's got nothing to do with the resource the game code is supposed to protect, and nothing to do with stealing said resource from the public.
                    I wasn't stating the safety rules were all bad ideas. Just that they're not necessarily poaching.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by huntfishtrap View Post
                      To me, the term "poaching" has always meant something like shooting a deer out of season, or using a rifle in bow season. Other violations, like exceeding your limit of fish, or shooting a 6-point deer in an area with an 8-point antler restriction, aren't quite the same. They're still wrong, but not as wrong, if that makes sense. I'm not sure what term should be used to describe such lesser misdeeds, but to me "poaching" should be reserved for more serious crimes.
                      When we went to point restrictions here the mistake kill was a very hot topic. The Commission put out there that if you call it in, they'll take the deer, issue a $25 fine, and give you another tag. This seems reasonable to me. From my mindset, I'm not out there to kill deer, so if it happened, I clearly thought I saw something I didn't. There was no benefit whatsoever to doing it. If you called it in, you got a hassle, a fine, and no part of the animal. Sounds fair.
                      I quite nearly made the mistake that year. Called in a nice 6, but swore when I saw him that he had a brow tine giving him 4 on at least one side.. he did not. I was putting pressure on trigger when I glanced back up at headgear(a rookie mistake..) and promptly took pressure off trigger. Told the family member I was hunting with about it later. He indicated that so far that year 2 people had called the local WCO for mistake kills. The officer's opinion was there was no such thing. $800 fines and loss of privileges for both.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by charlie elk View Post
                        Because so many game laws today are more about social behavior than protecting the resources, I think there is a big difference between poaching and violating. The term poaching should be reserved for those who take animals out of season and or off land where they do not have permission. Whereas a violation is when rules are broken, and the penalty is only a fine similar to a parking or speeding ticket. A couple of examples; incorrectly casing a gun or bow, inadvertently using lead in a steel only area, shooting too close to a road (who measures it exactly?) shooting slightly before or after legal shooting hours, etc. To me, these are ways to "cheat" at the sport but do not cross the line to poaching.
                        There is in my humble opinion a third category; we once had wanton waste laws on the books; this is when someone kills game within all other legal limits then allows the edible meat to go to waste. There are those who clean it fast leaving behind edible meat, put game in the freezer then throw it away later before the next season opens. Or those who refuse to enter their self-imposed deer sanctuary to retrieve a hit deer. To me, a wanton waster is much worse than any poacher who makes use of an animal.
                        Good for you, charlie. I considered doing so as well, but figured your name would carry more clout.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by 6phunter View Post
                          Whether or not you might see different degrees of poaching,deer or squrriels out of season,or fish and inch short or one to many in your creel,your money is green and not worth the trouble it might bring.
                          Richard, I'm still trying to figure it out, LOL!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by huntfishtrap View Post
                            To me, the term "poaching" has always meant something like shooting a deer out of season, or using a rifle in bow season. Other violations, like exceeding your limit of fish, or shooting a 6-point deer in an area with an 8-point antler restriction, aren't quite the same. They're still wrong, but not as wrong, if that makes sense. I'm not sure what term should be used to describe such lesser misdeeds, but to me "poaching" should be reserved for more serious crimes.
                            That's a case for using the three 's' rule.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Those interviewed by B&C cited four major flaws with the courts, when it comes to prosecuting poachers:

                              Wildlife crimes were a lower priority than crimes against people or private property.

                              Courts were inconsistent about penalties, prosecuting and dropping poaching cases.

                              Some judges were weak on punishment because of cultural traditions or personal reasons.

                              Some judges and prosecutors displayed a poor understanding of wildlife conservation and the role of hunting in conservation.

                              Comment

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