Somebody told me that a 30-06 can shoot accurately and have more knock down power than a savage .270 but I dont know, what do ya

[Bo]

6p, I was told many years ago that the number of rounds used in WW1 figured out to be 11 rounds per man killed; in WW2, with the advent of the M1, a semi-automatic rifle it took 110 rounds per man killed; In Korea it was 1100 rounds per kill; and yes, it supposedly took 11,000 rounds per kill in Vietnam.
I do not know if those figures are correct, I have never bothered to try to verify these figures; but the point that the speaker was trying to make was that with the advent of semi-automatic rifles, the felt need for marksmanship has gone down. It can be trained, but when a soldier is in a firefight, he is not inclined to try to pinpoint a target, but do a "pray and Spray" The speaker was a retired Army officer whose point was the decline in the training and follow through in using the techniques that soldiers were taught.
I know a lot of cops; I know of no one Police Force going back to the .357. Most of the forces left the .357 because of excessive penetration and too much collateral damage. There are a lot of forces giving up on the 9mm because of its lack of effectiveness in shootouts. Most of the cops that I know are carrying .40 or .45, because of the record of the .45. Many figure that the .40 is better than a 9 and easier to control than a .45.
I am not familiar with what you said about the Geneva Convention and their urging the use of lighter calibers; where can I find more information on this?

[NM]

In hunting applications there isn't a nickle's worth of difference between the two. To my knowledge there is no 270 Savage cartridge so the comparison is between the 30-06 and the 270, and has has gone on for decades.
The 30-06 was standardized in its present form in 1906, the 270 in 1925. The 308 was acccepted as a military cartrideg in 1954, but it was replaced by the 223 as a military round in 1957 so the develpoment of the 270 was unrelated to the 308.
Because of the ability to shoot heavier bullets the 06 may seem to kick harder than the 270 and some seem to think that the heavier bullets hit game with more energy. If loaded to the same pressure,not velocity, the larger diameter bullet will have less recoil. I have no idea how to figure c.u.p.(Copper Units of Pressure) so if anyone does I am interested to know how. Due to the quality of firearms avilable now days accuracy is dependent on the person behind the trigger.
As for 9mms, some people are of the opinion that the that the .45 is the much better cartridge and the US caved into NATO.

[Bo]

WSU in NM, you are correct in that there are some in the military believe the .45 to be superior. Certain Marine Units use .45's (They may all, I have just heard about select units) and many of the special ops guys, some of which have the luxury of carrying their personal weapons. It seems the .45 has a better record.
But then the 6.8 SPC was designed by a couple of special ops guys who did not like the fact that the 5.56 mm round used by the Army did not always take the bad guy out of the fight on the first pop.
As far as why we gave in to the 9mm, there are many theories; we caved to the NATO guys, the .45 has too much recoil, the .45 ammo weighs too much, they can carry more ammo if they are using a 9, etc.
It is probably a combination of all of the above. It's just sad that that kind of decision is costing the lives of the men and women who are over there in harms way with inadequate weaponry...

[land_cruiser_73]

Interesting how the conversation turned from .06 vs .270 to 45 vs 9mm. The 6.8 was designed to increase range in the open desert conditions. The military doesn't want to kill ANY enemy. We want to wound them all and overwhelm their service and support. It is also demoralizing for soldiers to see their wounded buddies in pain.

[Bo]

land_cruiser_73,
I guess things have changed since I was in the Army, back in the early 70's. I had a friend who had a sign that said, "Join the Army, travel to exotic distant lands, meet exciting unusual people... AND KILL THEM."
I had a small placard on one wall that said, "KTA,LGSTO" (Kill them all, Let God sort them out). We always considered that the only good BAD guy was a dead one...

[land_cruiser_73]

Bo,
I love that sign, but mine adds "But only on the weekends" cause I'm in the Guard. I also agree about the bad guy, but is an enemy soldier the bad guy? Or is he simply serving his country?
If you wound him, it takes two of his buddies to drag him off the field, effectively removing 3 combatants with one bullet.

[Bo]

land_cruiser_73, from my standpoint anyone trying to shoot me is a bad guy, I don't care what he is like as a person or anything about him. If he is trying to take out me or my team, he is a bad guy and needs to be gone...
The world is a lot different now than it was when I was in... The Middle East was a powder keg then, but in a different way than now.
I won't go into that, but when I was in, the KTA thought was foremost in our minds as we considered negative contacts with the guys who had opposition to our existence. I don't know anyone who would consider wounding anyone shooting at him.

[land_cruiser_73]

Bo
You're preaching to the choir. I was just throwing some food for thought. I am not a good enough shot to shoot to wound. No one is. Center mass all the way.
They also teach us now that it is not PC to say 'double tap', rather we now use 'contolled pairs'.
I do stand by my statement that wounded soldiers erode the fighting capability of an army faster than dead, unless they are ALL dead.

[Bo]

land_cruiser_73, I have never been PC so I will probably always use the expression double tap. And I have already offended people in other forums (fora for the Latin speakers) for using it when talking about self-defense.
I will not argue with you about the demoralizing effect of losing a comrade, but I would think that it would be more demoralizing to be dead.
I don't know, as I have never been dead...

[Marxmann.308]

thats very much true. A 30 06 will put down a large bouncer from 75 yrds away but if you really want to kill without being caught, I would go with the .308 round win. It is compact and pulls apart easily. U can do the job and leave quickly. the weapon comes apart easily and can be stored in a small douphel where no one will question you.

[bigbuck96]

yea it all depends on the bullet and the shot placement but generally the 30-06 will have quite a bit of thump over a .270

[guamfrank]

I shoot both and feel that with the same bullet type and weight they are nearly identical as both drop the deer equally. For larger game the 30-06 with the heavier bullets available would have better knockdown performance.